1957 Dexta Fuel Pump issue

[lesestoff]

I am happy to have join this forum. So far i have learned alot from reading along.

I am the happy owner of the following:

Dextra 1957 with simms vacuum fuel pump and front loader.

History: The previous owner had been using this tractor on his farm until he started having trouble with the fuel pump. It was leaking fuel, which then ran into the timing case and ended up diluting his engine oil.

He then purchased new injection pump elements plus seals and bearings in the hopes of rebuilding the Injector pump. When he opened the side cover he noticed that the middle plunger was drooling precious diesel.

He ended up getting a freshly rebuilt pump, and had alwas planned on installing it, but ended up selling it as is after his grandfather passed, who was the one using the tractor.

The problem:
I installed and timed the pump. bled everything and noticed that the first injector line was not outputting any fuel. 2 and 3 squirted vigorously. I suspected the delivery valve wich indeed was stuck. I was able to remove it by slowly turning over the engine. I ended up working the valve in the valve guide until it felt free and smooth. Checked the delivery valve holder output nozzle, it was plugged and i cleared it with some compressed air.

I felt victorious as i put everything back together, only to find that the first injector line is still not being supplied.

If i remove the delivery valve out of the assembly and turn the engine i get a fuel flow.


My Ideas:
It feels like the pressure created by the pump elements is not sufficient to move the delivery valve. Is this even possible? Where would the fuel go instead? Would i see that through the side cover?

Is it possible that the little holes in the pump elements are clogged or partially clogged? If so would i be able to blow them out from above, if i open the fuel input nozzle and blow through the delivery nozzle while the delivery valve is removed?

Can i remove the upper part of the injector pump and pull out the pump elements without messing up the calibration?

Possible problem:
There is something that i am not sure about. When i move the rack to the right like if the vacuum governor would i have fairly strong resistance. When i let it go, is slides back to the left very slowly. It takes at least 20-30 seconds to travel all the way. This happens as well if i open up the vacuum line on the air intake side.

I am hoping some of you will able to help me figure out what is happening. My experience with repairing tractors is limited so i am learning alot from the great workshop handbooks. Thanks everyone, i am glad to part of this interesting community.

[Billy26F5]

If you have diesel in oil the first job is to replace the injector pump seal, it will prevent such a leak. As for the delivery valve I suspect it needs replacing, the correct one is 502E-993227 or Simms P.84055. Once replaced the pump needs to be recalibrated. Check the injector pipe isn't blocked and at all times make sure no dirt of any kind can enter the pump or piping. As for the rack movement try cleaning the governor air filter, that can make a big difference. it should move freely, but moving it to the lo delivery side will of course feel hard due to the governor spring. These diaphragms are leather, so if you do end up removing it I recommend putting some petroleum jelly on to prevent it becoming porous. Make sure all filters are clean and fitted correctly.
Sandy

[lesestoff]

Thank you sandy.

Diesel in the oil was the last owners issue, which i have not had so far. (fingers crossed). You mean the main seal between the timing housing and the injector pump? That seal was shredded, and i made my own. Hope it holds.

There has been a new development:
Yesterday i tested again without changing a thing, and i am getting pressure on the number one injector pipe. It might be slightly less vigorous than the other two but i am finally getting delivery. My hope had been that whatever build-up of sticky residue that was blocking the delivery valve was the same thing with the pump element, and would dissolve with fresh diesel flushing through ant time to soak.

I did get her to run a bit yesterday, although with the help of a tiny bit of ether. Ran her for a minute or two, it was hard to hear for sure whether all cylinders where firing properly since i am not really used to the 3cylinder sound. There was alot of surging going on so i will have a look at the vacuum governor next as well as all the tubes involved.

I checked the gov. breather and it had no wire mesh in it, and was pretty gunky. Cleaned it an put in the mesh from the old pump. might have to pull the governor apart and check the insides though. Might be mucky in there, possibly why the rack was sluggish, this also freed up after a while.

I will let you know what i find.

[Billy26F5]

Sounds rather like you're running reasonably. Try the primer and heater for starting, it should make a big difference. These governors have no damping valve so ther will be hunting, although many surprisingly will run quite smooth if they're used for real work. You will want to clean inside the governor if the filter wasn't there, you can then check the condition of parts in there too. You could if you pull the stop control partially out see how it runs without hunting, that might help to see if all cylinders sound good. In your previous post you say it's a 57, if that's true you have a rare tractor for only 143 were made that year. The serial number and engine number will answer that. As for the seal if you find it doesn't work look for E1ADDN-993207 or Simms 22159, unfortunately replacing these seals requires major dismantling of the pump (there's an identical seal at the other end too).
Sandy

[Old Hywel]

Diesel in the sump can be the result of a leaking primer nozzle, particularly if the original ball-and-spring item is still fitted.

[Billy26F5]

Good point, although there it would probably cause other issues too.
Sandy

[lesestoff]

Diesel in the sump according to the previous owner was caused by leakage in the injector pump elements. When the little window was open he could see it coming out of number 2.

When you say it runs reasonably... i might have understated the surging it does. It really revs... and belches smoke on every gallop. OF course who knows what remnants of lubricants or old fuel and deposits are being burnt off.

BTW the pump came separately. I janked off the nose and radiator, implanted the "overhauled" injection pump, pulled the tank and did a week long rust removal treatment and rebuilt from there. So i was glad it ran yesterday, but i feel there is a lot of room for improvement. I was given video footage of it running before he had the pump issue, and it sounded great.

I will definitely have a look at the governor and make sure the primer injector ist doing its job.

[Billy26F5]

The leaking plungers won't cause diesel in oil if the injector pump seals are ok, it'll just come out the pig tail pipe. Looking at the governor might improve the hunting but don't expect it to be capable of even revs as there's no damping valve. There will be smoke if it doesn't work hard, these engines weren't designed for just playing around. Hopefully next time it runs you can try the primer and heater for starting.
Sandy

[lesestoff]

There is news.
The governor was pretty gunky, and one screw was loose on the governor cap. Thats not great. Cleaned it out and replaced the membrane with the old one wich seemed slightly nicer. I did rub in the good old petroleum jelly.

About the primer... the primer nozzle that sticks into the intake manifold was completely stopped up and crusty, i think the rusty fuel did a numbe on it. I cooked it in citric acid, and it looked fairly clean, but i was still not open. I then made the mistake of heating it up with a torch, and it looks like there used to be some sort of rubber unit inside, that then came boiling out ... oops.

The primer pump pumps ok. I am unsure wether its supposed to dribble without pumping though. When i take disconnect the primer tube from the nozzle, fuel comes out at a constant fast drip/slow stream. Wich means i cant use the primer until i have a new nozzle, otherwise i am constantly feeding fuel through the intake manifold.

By the way the engine number might be CKN | 372. I will attach a picture. Where do i find the serial? I thought it would be on the bell housing by the timing window, but did not find it.
https://photobucket.com/share/bad442cf- ... d89e119f1b
This is how she ran before the previous owner removed the pump because of leakage.
https://photobucket.com/share/58584770- ... 70d8453718

[Billy26F5]

That number is on all Dexta's, the serial number is on the bell housing flange just in front of the timing inspection cover, the engine number is on the block just behind the water inlet, below the exhaust manifold. Casting codes are also worth finding. That might have actually been dirt. Sounds like your primer is leaking, it's not meant to drip like that. You can look at the primer if you want but a good atomiser (from engine 1409432) should keep that from getting in the engine (earlier engines do require the primer to be leak-proof). I can't help you with the atomiser without the engine number for there are four, and if your tractor is as old as it seems to be it could be a tricky part to find. The first one was used till 1404118, with a banjo connection, the second was used till 1409432, and was identical to the third except it didn't yet have a spring loaded ball valve to prevent leakage, the third (E414-CL-9) ran till the end except in Britain and perhaps other countries where regulations prevent the use of excess fuel when running, where from 09B-700977 a tap fitted atomiser (E761-CL-9) replaced the previous types, this last one is the only one made today.
Sandy

[lesestoff]

The one available to me is: https://fordson24.de/epages/04b877f3-54 ... ts/Dex3030
Not sure if it will fit, but it does have a shutoff built-in, which would solve the leakage problem from the opposite end.
I shall keep looking for the serial and motor numbers.

[lesestoff]

I think I found the numbers.
957E1 as best I can tell on the bell housing. ( i looked it up... does this mean its the first one ever made?) That would be pretty crazy!
For the motor it looks like 1419373
Cheers.

[Billy26F5]

I doubt it'll be the first one, probably a number closer to the engine number, the first one would have been 957E-0001. If your engine is 1419373 that points at around October 58, and will probably have E414-CL-9 in the manifold. The link is for E761-CL-9, the only one available today. Try putting the atomiser on the pipe but off the manifold and see if the ball valve keeps the leak from pouring diesel into the manifold. If it doesn't look in the atomiser to see that the ball and spring are there and that the ball seats nicely on the atomiser. E761-CL-9 will fit perfectly, it's only engines before 1404118 that are moe difficult, in that case it would need pipe E67-JA-9 in place of the original E34-JA-9. Here's a pic of Davie, with E414-CL-9 and E67-JA-9. I suspect yours will look the same.

Can post another pic if needed.
Sandy

[lesestoff]

Trying again to embed pictures. hopes it works. I can't get the E to show, but its right behind the fuel line and shutoff cable. I am posting the above the line and below the line pics. You tell me what it means..
Motornumber

Serial part one:

Serial part two:

Neither above nor below the one are there any indentations to be felt.
The year is clear I would say.
Probably someone swapped the engine at some point.

[Billy26F5]

Pics worked fine. More wire brushing is needed on the serial number, I read 957E-188xx which ties in with the engine.
Sandy

[lesestoff]

Sandy, you are correct, i suspect you hear that alot on this forum
I will add the picture of the complete number at the bottom.
I seem to have bigger problems...

To back things up:
While the pump was removed the engine was turned over. (to see if she is seized)
I used the workshop manual to try and figure out which of the timing marks or alignment marks i have to line up the pump/timing gear up with. (I am now no longer 100% sure i did this correctly) In the manual it looks like there should be 3 marks on the timing gear. One lines up with the cam gear one with the pump and one with the crank. It also looks like almost half of the gear is without marks, so i guess it is not a scale drawing. I have now started counting teeth to see if i can double check whether i did it right. Does anyone know how many teeth should be between the respective marks?

I am getting repetitions of numbers around 43 teeth. with one being 45 and one 39? Too many kids running around to get a perfect count.
The pump then would need to be lined up with the middle mark.

I remember lining up the alingment marks between the timing gear and pump gear just through the inspection cover (thinking i had the right one) then i turned until i found the compresson stroke of cyl one( both valve leavers of the closest cyilinder to the radiator were loose). Kept turning until i found the spill mark. Checked the timing of the pump and adjusted it.

Since i don't know the math i am not sure whether it is possilbe to do all those things and still have the timing and pump gears misaligned or not. Hopefully someone knows.

The biggest issue i see is that it seems to me that the pump cam has a shot bearing. When turning the engine over i saw it "bounce" now and then and when i stick a screwdriver under the gear i can leverage it up by several millimeters. This would likely cause very poor running if she runs at all. After the first day i have not managed to get her to run at all! I do have the bearings. If i replaced them would everything have to be calibrated and phased?

[Billy26F5]

The number is 957E-18828. There is a lot of varied trouble to sort out, as you'll have seen reading back through the forum which I recommend. I think you'd be quicker removing the timing cover. The marks line up every 18 turns only. If the pump bearings are gone the seals probably will quickly too if they haven't already. As the pump is said to be rebuilt it does require phasing and calibrating after replacing the bearings (if it weren't you could have tried it but with high probability delivery would be a bit less, so still desirable to check anyway). What bearings do you have? The correct ones (E1ADDN-993203) are angular contact with removable races, necessary to allow the pump to come apart. On the camshaft there are shims (E1ADDN-993202A/B, Simms 20672/3, 0.004" and 0.008" thick) to maintain the camshaft end float to 0.002". The spill timing and phasing can be done as long as you can measure 120 degrees accurately to 1/2 a degree, the calibrating requires a machine, it should be 10 cc for 200 injections at 600 rpm. The only issue you'll have if you phase it yourself is getting phasing spacers, for they're not made anymore. I've found some in the States but I don't know if they're maybe second hand, with only two thicknesses out of five (the total is about 12 but the others you'll only find on Major's) you can't really do a great deal.
Sandy

[lesestoff]

You are not giving me tons of hope, to be honest.
Measuring angle precisely should be possible. I am not sure what setup i could use to calibrate. Fixed rpm is easy, counting rotations not so much.

Lets start with the alignment marks.
If If i get the spill line and the timing mark on the pump to line up during the compression stroke, is that not technically sufficient? The crank and cam are still in time. Whether the pump is lined up with the marks every 18 turns or not should not keep it from doing its job as long as the timing mentioned above is correct, or am i off the mark here? (no pun intended)

I don't love the idea of having to stuggle with the timing cover and its massive seal, which most likely break. Also I think i would have to remove the giant crank nut.

Before i rip into the pump, i think i might want to do the following, let me know what you think:

Pull and test the injectors. Might be a way to see whether the pump actually builds pressure. The excess fuel tube stays dry when i crank, so it seems nearly none is sqeezing past.

I do have brand new pump elements that i could install once the pump is ripped apart. If it seems that it does not build proper pressure i figure i could replace the parts that i own already. On the other hand if spraying is good, i might just leave the pump as is and only redo the cam bearings.

[Billy26F5]

If there's no real bleed through the pump is supplying the injectors reasonably well. Checking the injectors requires an injector tester, you need to verify 160 atmospheres to inject, a good spray pattern, a slow drop in pressure and no leakage through the needle valve seat (nozzle tip should remain dry throughout operation). The time for the pressure to drop from 125 to 90 atmospheres should be 45 seconds, 6 is acceptable but aim for 45. Dismantling to replace the nozzles (NH153A) is easy, but remember no dirt of any kind must get in and that they should be assembled in diesel and retested. As for the marks the timing gears only line up every 18 turns, you can't see that unless you remove the timing cover, the bolt holding the crank pulley isn't a big deal to remove, nor is the pulley provided you have a suitable puller. Chances are the front crank seal needs replacing anyway. It then allows you to remove the idler gear and line everything up more quickly. The timing mark on the pump needs to be checked, otherwise you can't know if it's accurate or not, and it'll change with new bearings. Changing the plungers and barrels will probably require new phasing spacers, so keep that in mind. With what it has now it should hopefully be pretty close to right. Don't assume the diesel shop did it correctly, we found Super Billy had been set on no 4 instead of no 1 and several degrees out as well, just out of the diesel shop (to this day I still can't understand why). Calibrating sets the amount injected, the pressure is set in the injectors. It must be the same for all three cylinders to 0.2 cc for 200 injections at 600 rpm. The real machines use special injectors and test tubes and have a mechanism for self draining and automatic count of injections with a trip setup that also disengages feed to the injectors. I'm hoping to make one up myself but it's going to take me several years to get everything I need, and it'll be a much more cumbersome machine at best.
And finally remember to keep well away from atomised diesel.
Sandy

[lesestoff]

So your recommendation ist to do the bearings and leave all settings as they are and see if she runs?
Unfortunately I am still a slight bit unclear on the timing marks.
I guess I am not sore what the consequence is for being at 16 vs 18 turns if the pump is timed with the flywheel, which it is(or was when I installed it.) or are you saying that if the timing marks don't line up under the timing cover she will not run even if the flywheel spill mark lines up with the pump?

My brother who learned tractor malechanic back in the day, thinks just by the diagrams that as long as the crank and cam are in synch the pump just has to be timed with the flywheel. Whether the marks line up or not should be unimportant. This is why I am unsure..

[Billy26F5]

That is true, but you then need to think if the camshaft is timed correctly, which if not will need the timing cover to come off as well. Not common but not impossible. The pump marks are only accurate when it's just been checked. With bearings like those the phasing will have changed, and although the relative angle might be pretty good, the spill timing will be out. To find out the real timing position, remove the number 1 delivery valve, spring and volume reducer and refit the holder, loosen the three screws holding the gear onto the adaptor and turn the pump slowly in the running direction until fuel ceases to flow from the delivery valve holder. Stop and see where the mark is, it can be a long way away. Scribe a new mark and time the pump after refitting the delivery valve, spring volume reducer and holder, torque to 30 lb ft. Make sure the flywheel spill mark is lined up before to avoid having to do so later. I think you should replace the bearings, then phase it and get access to a calibrating machine and set the correct amount. Then test at 200 rpm, if the delivery is below 8 cc the plunger and barrel need replacing, if it goes above 10 cc the delivery valve needs replacing, all this for 200 injections. Probably no bad thing to test the delivery first and avoid dismantling the pump twice. Once everything is correctensure the maximum fuel stop is wire locked.
Sandy

[lesestoff]

Ok Guys in case you are interested, this was a surprising turn of events. I started by checking the timing because i felt like i should, and sure enough spill mark was perfect for the second cylinder, wierd. Never mind set the spill to cylinder one and pulled the pump out.

Used a puller and A LOT of force to get the gear of the pump. And what do i find: Major Mahem.



When pulling the lift pump i realized what had happened. The new injector pump came without the studs to attach the lift pump. Not knowing that i needed studs i ordered the screws used for attatching the lift pump. The lady at petrol tractors checked and shipped me fitting bolts. Well turns out they were too long. So what endet up happening, the cam hits the screw (no mark on the cam by the way) and sheared he key on the drive.

Fortunately (since i have doubles of most of these parts, i have another cam.

Everything else went smoothly except for the inner races. Those are such a tight fit, that i had to cut notches into them to be able to pull them off with the puller. I dont really see how you are expected to remove the inner races to add shims in case they are needed. I think we will warm up the races put them in place and pray we don't need to remove them. Do you guys have a trick?

I decided to go ahead an put all new plungers and pump elements in. Since we are mixing and matching the best parts of both pumps, there is no way we can get away without a full adjustment anyway so we might as well use the best parts we have. (still factory sealed).

@Sandy, you seem to have the ultimate reverence guide when it comes to parts and their numbers. Do you happen to know if the outer races of the bearings are available? The new bearings came with inners. The other thing that would be good to replace would be the timing adaptor that holds the pump gear, i think the old one might still be usable (just so) if we polish out some of the roughness, but i would much prefer having a fresh one that fits smoothly. Of course the key is also toast. Btw. If you prefer you could let me know where i can look this stuff up on my own. I don't want to be bothering you all the time with my questions.

Running into this problem was a blessing in disguise because the whole pump sump was full of rusty disgusting oil. There is no way this was an overhauled pump. It would have failed very soon either way.

[Billy26F5]

Of all things I would never have guessed that. That's in no way a good place to work on stuff like this, dirt well smaller than visible can completely destroy the pump. Make sure plungers and barrels and delivery valves and guides are kept matched otherwise they will fail due to a non lapped fit. Don't touch lapped faces either or let them touch anything other than their mating part and clean diesel, failure to observe such precautions will cause the lapping to fail. Not surprised that gear was difficult to remove, and that puller is not big enough. The special tool Ford had (CT.6085) was huge compared to that. They used special adaptors in that tool (CT.6085-1) that run in the track in the inner race. I suspect the bearing wear had a lot to do with the races being as tight as well. As this is now a full overhaul you're just as well to follow the manual here:
https://tractorspares.ie/Manual%20Part4.pdf
Hopefully Henk will soon post a better quality version with the missing parts (except the petrol engine which I can't find so far). The manual calls for lots of special tools, a lot of the pullers and associated adaptors are simply to accelerate the repair. It will also detail verifying all adjustments, very important if using new parts. I would recommend you replace the delivery valves too, and get a full gasket and seal kit. https://injectionpumps.co.uk/ are a good source for injection parts. New nozzles are no bad thing either. Are the plungers correct (957E-993153, Simms 23460, 6 mm bore), if not you'll need to get correct ones. Hope you can find phasing spacers if the phasing is out (highly likely but you can't know without checking it). Don't use heat, it will destroy the pump. As for the new bearings, races are all matched so if you don't have the outer races you'll need more new bearings. You could measure the inner race to bearing housing flange distance and the length of the camshaft between race abutments, add them up and compare to the length of the cambox, the cambox should be plus 0.002". It won't be 100% accurate but should avoid getting the end float too wrong (maximum 0.006"). The gear adaptor (E363-CL-9) isn't currently available, so you'll need to find a good second hand one. The key (74175-S) is a 5/32" thick x 5/8" Woodruff type, also used in Major's. Make sure everything is cleaned up totally, and assembled in diesel. Finally fill with engine oil before assembly. The pump is lubricated by diesel but a wee bit of oil every so often is no bad thing, but make sure no dirt can get in when putting it in. By the way, nae bother about asking for stuff, that's what the forum is for.
Sandy

[lesestoff]

As i see it the main risk to the pump while disassembling came from the dirt on the outside, wich is why we washed and rinsed over and over with clean diesel. Once things were clean we put the lower pump parts with wet diesel hands directly into clean marked jars, cap on. will store them in diesel until time comes to reuse the lower parts.
The sludge in the bottom of the wash pan, is all from inside the cambox. It was hideous. The old Cam was pitted like crazy, there were all manner of rings and run-in spots on it. No wonder we had so much slack in the drive. Once the springs were gone, we could tell even better what miserable shape the insides were in.

The head unit with the delivery valves is still sealed. Wont touch that until i start reassembly in a clean place.

I agree new bearings would be nice, just not sure whether they are avalyble and what to search for.
On the other hand, with an end drift of half a millimeter, i wonder how imprortant it is to have matched pairs.
The oil seal on the mounting plate side, is available, which is nice. The other side, i own 3 brand new ones, from the previous owner.
The workshop manual is very helpful (i have two versions), but they do assume that you know what you are seeing alot. Many times the descriptions are detailed, but a picture here or there would be helpful.
Or a close-up of the special tools that they assume you just have laying around. Is there actually any collection of those old tools? If so it would be awesome if we could do like library of tools where they can be borrowed, so that the community can use them.

If you can point me to any of the item numbers of the missing parts, i would be greatful.

[Billy26F5]

Pleased to see you were careful. The pumps do get dirty if left unused for a while, but that looks like more that usual. Many parts you can get from https://injectionpumps.co.uk/, there are other suppliers too but I haven't seen what they have. Bearings are available, A20 type. Glad the spare camshaft is good. Did any shims come off either camshaft? What numbers are there on the pump inspection covers? The Dexta had the SPE 3A 60S 402 and SPE 3A 60S 593, the difference being in the governor (GPD90A31 for the 402, GPD90A63 for the 593). There are two governor springs, 502E-993120 (marked red, Simms 87130) and 957E-993120 (haven't any hard evidence but I believe marked yellow, Simms 24172, the others are E1ADDN-993120, unmarked, Simms 22316, and 510E-993120, marked blue, Simms 89633). 957E-993120 is listed as Germany only. You say you have two versions of the manual, I assume one is Stefan's one I posted the link to, is the other one the I&T one? The special tools were generally only at dealers, the vast majority made by VL Churchill who I believe are still around. Can't be sure if you're missing parts, it looks like everything is there to me but would need more pics. Parts books are around on the FFCN and elsewhere but you might well still struggle to know if you have everything or not for very little can be found by Ford part nos these days in injection parts.
Sandy